Recently Sam the Steamroller argued the Bible was not reliable for the following reasons:

“The KJV of the New Testament was completed in 1611 by 8 members of the Church of England. There were no original texts to translate. There still aren't. The oldest manuscripts we have were written down hundreds of years after the last apostle died. There are over 8,000 of these old manuscripts with no two alike. The King James translators used none of these manuscripts. None. Instead, they edited previous translations to create a version their king and Parliament would approve. 21st century Christians (you...), believe the "word of God" is a book edited in the 17th century from 16th century translations from 8,000 contradictory copies of 4th century scrolls that claim to be copies of lost letters written in the 1st century..”

Surprisingly this statement against the reliability of textual transmission of the Bible is made up of a number of intertwined arguments and misrepresentations. To get at the heart of this we will need to untangle the intermixed arguments and assess them separately and determine if as a whole they make a compelling case against the reliability of the transmission of the Bible.

Argument 1

Overall this statement can be simplified in the following conditional syllogism:

• Major premise: “The King James Version is not reliable.”
• Minor premise: “The King James Version the Word of God (Bible).”
• Conclusion: “Therefore the Word of God (Bible) is not reliable.”

First the argument is logically invalid and is a strong defeater for the whole argument. Just because the KJV is not reliable does not mean that Word of God is not reliable. There are a multitude of translations of the word of God and it is a fallacy of composition to assume that because one translation is unreliable that they all are.

Separate from the invalid argument the major premise is falsifiable.

Yes there are known errors in the KJV translation of the Bible. We know there are minor errors because today we have over 5824 Greek manuscripts we can compare (New Testament alone). However, none of the errors effect any major Christian doctrine. Therefore the translation is reliable for Christian doctrine.

Argument 2 (implied and unstated)

• Major premise: “The King James Version is not reliable.”
• Minor premise: “New English translations are based on the King James Version.”
• Conclusion: “Therefore, new English translation are not reliable.”

While this syllogism is logically valid the premises are both false making the argument false.

I have shown in a previous statement why the major premise is false.

The minor premise is false because new translations are not based on the KJV they are based on the oldest most reliable manuscripts. For example the English Standard Version is based upon an entirely different Greek texts than the King James Version which is based primarily on the Textus Receptus.

Argument 3

“There were no original texts to translate.” In this statement there is the unstated presupposition that you have to have the original documents in order to have an accurate translation. We can turn this statement into the following conditional syllogism:

• Major premise: If you don’t have the original documents, you can’t make an accurate translation.
• Minor premise: We don’t have the original documents.
• Conclusion: Therefore, we don’t have an accurate translation.

It should be clear that just because we don’t have the original documents does not mean that we cannot have a reliable translation based on copies, provided that the copies are reliable.

Incorrect facts:

1.) “There are over 8,000 of these old manuscripts with no two alike.”

At last count there are over 5824 Greek New Testament manuscripts. There are over 10,000 New Testament manuscripts in other languages such as Coptic, Syriac, Latin and Arabic and an additional 10,000 manuscripts quoting passages from the New Testament. Many of the earliest Church fathers (such as Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp) quoted portions of the New Testament and we have their writings. From those writing we can reconstruct the entire New Testament. In fact only 2 books Jude and 2 John were not quoted before 100 AD after 100AD they are all quoted. These manuscripts equate to millions of pages of text. It is because we have so many manuscripts and sources that we can determine the differences and reconstruct the originals with a high degree of accuracy. In fact, the more manuscripts we have the more we can compare and contrast these manuscripts and the higher degree of accuracy.

2.) “…they edited previous translations to create a version their king and Parliament would approve.”

This statement is a circumstantial ad hominem. Attacking the translators by claiming they had vested interests is fallacious unless it can be showed that they had the bias and that that bias resulted in material mistranslations.

3.) “21st century Christians (you...), believe the "word of God" is a book edited in the 17th century from 16th century translations from 8,000 contradictory copies of 4th century scrolls that claim to be copies of lost letters written in the 1st century.”

A minority of Christians, those in the King James only camp, believe that the perfect “Word of God' is a book edited in the 17th century and that the KJV is innerrant (true and without error). Overwhelmingly, Christians believe the Word of God was faithfully written by the original authors and reliably transmitted to us.

4.) "8,000 contradictory copies"

The textual differences (variants) are often cited as being in the hundreds of thousands of differences. 99% of the textual differences can be spotted easily because we have so many manuscripts and most of them are differences are in word order, grammar and spelling. These are all minor textual variants don’t amount to material errors that would change the meaning of the text. In fact 200,000 variants, over half, are spelling errors. Of the estimated 396,000 variants we can still reconstruct the original with a high degree of accuracy and confidence.

5.) "4th century scrolls"

There are plenty of other manuscripts that date before the 4th century. Recently we have discovered the earliest manuscripts ever, it is a portion of Mark that dates from the 1st century, and previously the earliest was from the early second century and was from the book of John known as the John Rylands Papyri.

From the second century alone we have 18 manuscripts that include 40% of the New Testament. There are over 60 manuscripts from the 3rd century. In addition, as previously stated we have second generation Church leaders form the 1st century quoting from all but two books of the New Testament in over 10,000 separate manuscripts.

6.) The translators were "8 members of the Church of England"

In truth 54 scholars were approved for the translation but 47 actually undertook the task of translating. The translators were divided into 6 committees translating different portions of the Bible. The names of the translators are publicly accessible. See: Daniell, David (2003). The Bible in English: its history and influence. New Haven, Conn: Yale University Press.

Conclusion

One of the unstated claims is that copyists made so many errors that we cannot consider the text we have as being reliable. They point to thousands minor textual variants as proof that the Bible we have is unreliable. However, even the hyper-skeptical Bart Erhman agrees that most of these variants are minor.

“…Most of the changes found in our early Christian manuscripts have nothing to do with theology or ideology. Far and away the most changes are the result of mistakes, pure and simple—slips of the pen, accidental omissions, inadvertent additions, misspelled words, blunders of one sort of another.” - Bart Ehrman [1]

Greg Koukl sums it up this way:

“…Our New Testament is over 99% pure. In the entire text of 20,000 lines, only 40 lines are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine.” - Gerg Koukl [2]

Most of this information has about the New Testament. Well what about the Old Testament? According to Peter Flint PhD, excluding spelling, word order and grammar errors, we can determine that even over 2000 years of coping, the Old Testament is 99% accurate. This is due in large part to the discovery of the Dead Seas scrolls which had been lost for the last 2000 years. This is strong evidence that suggests we can determine a statistical error rate for the scribes that copied the Bible over the years. For the Old Testament we are talking about a material error rate of less than 1%. This is in line with our current estimates of 0.2% material error rate for the New Testament.

I think I have done a good job in untangle the intermixed arguments and assess them separately and determined as a whole they do not make a compelling case against the reliability of the transmission of the Bible. As you can see almost all of the assertions are wrong and the logic does not follow from those facts.

Much more could be said but it should be apparent that Sam failed to make the case the Bible is unreliable. In fact, a good case can be made that the transmission of the Biblical text is free from material errors.

Endnotes:

[1] Ehrman, Bart D. ‘’Misquoting Jesus.’’ Kindle Edition. HarperOne. 2009 Kindle Edition. (Kindle Locations 884-886).

[2] Koukl, Greg. Stand To Reason Solid Ground Newsletter “Misquoting” Jesus? Answering Bart Ehrman September/October 2010 by Gerg Koukl

For further information see: ReasonWiki.org's List of Resources on the Reliability of the Bible

 

Interesting online discussion on Abortion and Personhood

Original Poster (OP)
‎"As the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade passes, it’s important to remember the both sides of the evangelical anti-abortion movement’s history. Yes, it did involve legitimate moral concerns about abortion, it did occasion serious reflection on the issue by evangelical scholars and pastors, and it did bring a formerly apolitical segment of America into the political process.

But its founding moral outrage stemmed not from Roe v. Wade, but from the prospect of government-imposed desegregation; it rest its intellectual foundation on highly dubious, non-scholarly arguments advanced by Francis Schaeffer; it mobilized lay evangelicals to action by telling them the Bible teaches something it does not actually teach; and it actively suppressed the scholarship of evangelicals who held alternative viewpoints."
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/sexandgender/6801/the_not_so_lofty_origins_of_the_evangelical_pro_life_movement_/

(Me)
I actually think the Bible does talk to this issue. Whether it comes from the commandment not to murder or to the judgment of the Canaanites and others who sacrifice their children to Moloch. I do not think it is an unwarranted leap to apply either to the issue of abortion. In fact, I think it rationally follows from both. Especially when you understand the context of ancient near-east cultures and their promiscuous activities needed a form of birth control. Child sacrifice being the only possible form of abortion for them. – Yes, I grant that the word ‘abortion’ is not in the Bible, neither is the word gravity, but that is not an argument against gravity or abortion.

(John)
God is Pro Life otherwise he might as well not have made Adam or Eve.

(OP)
Donald your argument assumes that the debate over abortion is a debate over whether or not we should murder people--one would which certainly would be settled by the Bible's clear prohibition of murdering people. In reality, however, the debate is over whether or not embryos or fetuses are people in the first place. Those who don't think they are (and the Bible gives no conclusive reason to think one way or another on the subject--commandments against murder are irrelevant to the question of when full moral life begins) would not find themselves guilty of supporting murder by supporting abortion.

(Me)
OP what do you mean by "people" and "full moral life"?

(OP)
I mean an entity that possesses rights, such as you or I. The debate over abortion is a debate over whether or when the embryo is an entity like that. It's not a debate over whether or not we should murder people.

(Me)
OP How or what does an entity have to do to gain those rights? Does the act of birth confer those rights?

(OP)
That's the question at the heart of the debate over abortion. And that's exactly my point. It is not a debate over whether or not we should murder people; it's a debate over whether or when the embryo has the same rights as we do.

(Me)
I think that is the problem. The debate has been moved from concrete human rights to slippery subjective personhood rights. Reframing the debate from human rights to personhood rights leaves us with the question as to who decides this subjective definition of personhood. Any definition can be challenged. For example if it was based on moral capability how could you make the argument it wrong to kill a child after birth? What is the difference in moral capability an embryo have over a new born or over someone with advance dementia? In Jewish circles and still in some Christian groups children are not seen as being morally until the age of accountability. Would we say that it is ok to take their life until that age? If not, says who? It becomes a subjective slippery slope that will change with society’s whims.

Human rights on the other had are not subjective. We as human beings recognize the inherent value of all human life regardless of arbitrary divisions. Human rights are about protecting all, regardless of what they can do for society, their race, their sexual orientation, their stage of development or disorder. We can determine with scientific accuracy that the embryo is a unique, human life. Further the embryo has not broken any laws and is also innocent. So we have an innocent, unique, living human. Don’t we as moral agents have a duty to protect innocent human beings?

(OP)
And hence you've expressed one side of the debate over whether or not the embryo has human rights. My argument here is not that the embryo does not have human rights, although I do believe that, but that the question of whether it does (a question which the bible does not answer) is at the heart of the debate over abortion--not the question of whether or not murder is permissible (a question which the bible does answer).

(John)
God said he knew us before we were in our mothers womb. That settles it for Christians on whether it is life or not. Unless your one of those pick and choose Christians when it comes to Gods word.

(OP)
That verse was not widely interpreted as teaching when life begins until around 1980, when the evangelical Right emerged. Probably because 1) it's a poetic reflection on God's foreknowledge, not a treatise on personhood and 2) it says that God knew us before we were in the womb. On your reading, shouldn't we then conclude that life begins before conception?

So no, the Bible does not answer the question, despite the very recent, politically-motivated efforts to suggest otherwise.

(John)
Yes life was already here when he spoke it here. I dont try to figure out every single thing with my own thoughts. I let the Holy Spirit guide me into all truth and wisdom of Gods word. His word changed my life 5yrs ago and continues to everyday. Thank You Jesus!!

(John)
When you speak politically are you talking about the morons up in Washington, The ones who use God to get votes or the other ones who mock God. Well I dont pay one bit attention to anything them liars spew from their greedy evil mouths. The President included with them.

(Me)
By definition an embryo is a human and thus has human rights.

(Me)
The Bible is silent about nuclear war. Yet I think any rational person using the precepts of the Bible can come to the conclusion that it is wrong and violates God’s created order. Likewise, abortion takes the life of an innocent human being. The Bible not speaking to the issue directly is to be expected. If the Bible said abortion was wrong the original readers would not understand the context and that portion of the Bible would be meaningless to thousands of years of readers. Yet we can take the precepts of the Bible and natures witness to God’s created order (science) and come to the conclusion that in fact it is a human being, that it is unique from the mother and father, that it is innocent and that it is alive. God’s created order is that we use sex for reproduction and abortion violates the God ordained outcome.

(Me)
OP are you saying that even though the Bible does not speak directly about a recent medical procedure, you think that God should have included it in the Bible 3500 years ago, if He really thought it was wrong?

(OP)
Your getting your conclusions there from catholic natural law theology, not science. Science cannot prove that the embryo is a human being since the category "human being" is defined by moral and philosophical criteria as much as by scientific ones. And you're forgetting that abortion has in fact been practiced for thousands of years, including at the time the Bible was written.

(Me)
1.) I am not getting the definition from catholic natural law theory. I am using a Biological definition of what a Human being is.

Let me explain my point including more explicit references to the biology that is pertinent. First, the embryo is unique from the mother and the father, the child has a unique DNA sequence from the parents. Second, the DNA of the embryo is not that of a baboon or mushroom, it is human DNA. Third, is it growing (reproducing on a cellular level) and metabolizing the definition of biological life. We can even determine there is brain activity before the child is born. As far as we can tell all humans share a certain sequence of DNA that makes them Human and there are variations that uniquely identify the particular person from other people. I don’t need natural law to make my case. The only other premise I had was that the child was innocent. Generally, you need to prove guilt, otherwise innocence is presumed.

What cannot be defined scientifically is personhood as you have defined it. How would you define ‘full moral life’ scientifically? It can’t be done.
(Me)
2.) What specific evidence is there that ancient cultures performed abortions, other than death by exposure and sacrifice? Both of which are infanticide and morally on the same level. I spoke to this issue earlier as the Bible does say God finds infanticide detestable.

(OP)
The criteria you set forth for defining the category "human being" depend on philosophical assumptions about the nature of humans. I could just as easily assert a list of empirically verifiable features and say they characterize the nature of persons, such as the presence of a neocortex. Why a set of criteria should define a category like "human being" or "person" is determined by philosophy, not science.

As to the history of abortion, here's one place to start: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

(Me)
OP The article you cited about abortion in the past uses a very broad definition for abortion and merely restates the type of activity I already mentioned that is not technically abortion in today’s use of the word but miscarriage or other forms of infanticide. For example in the cited article they equate the Code of Hammurabi’s “miscarriage through assault” as abortion.

So if you maintain the broad definition for abortion (as in the website you cited) in order to prove it has been done in Biblical times then the Bible does speak directly to the issue. If not, then abortion is not in the Bible because it is to narrow a definition and not something the readers could have related too.

(OP)
What you really mean is that we define infanticide to extended to unborn life then the Bible condemns abortion. But to do that is to assume the fetus is a person, the very question we are debating. #circularreasoning

(Me)
OP I think you may be missing something. I am not advocating the position that the Bible speaks directly to the issue, only that ‘your’ reference uses a broad of a definition for abortion. If you find it circular, then you should not reference it. ;-)

My claim is that we are taking the life of an innocent human being and that using the precepts of the Bible come to the rational conclusion that abortion is wrong in God’s eyes. I don’t claim the fetus is a ‘person,’ I think that is an ambiguous and arbitrary term. I think the fetus is an innocent ‘human being’.

The difference is a human being is something you are and a person is something you can do. Any being that qualifies as a "person" has to meet a set of criteria to gain rights. In fact, scientists claim that dolphins qualify as a “person” under the same set of criteria. However unborn and even newborns don’t qualify as persons under this criterion. This same a linguistic sleight of hand has been used in the past to exclude some humans from right from African America slaves in the US to Jews in Germany.

(OP)
The claim that the embryo is a human being is a philosophical one, just as much as the claim that it is a person, as the category cannot fully be defined by science. It is based on criteria that exclude some entities and include others.

(Me)
OP Well we have found our area of disagreement. When I say ‘human beings,’ I mean a ‘Homo sapiens’. To me the two terms are synonymous and can be quantifiable via sciences as I have previously explained and you have not yet refuted. I don’t want to be accused of using the term inappropriately, so here are some official definitions: “human being n. A human. human being n a member of any of the races of Homo sapiens; person; man, woman, or child.” The medical dictionary defines human being as “human [h(y)o̅o̅′mən] Etymology: L, humanus a member of the genus Homo and particularly of the species H. sapiens.” Form a science dictionary “A member of the species Homo sapiens” Based on the official definition and how I use the term ‘human being’ it is a question science can answer simply based on a DNA test. Therefore, it is not a philosophical question.

I believe the Bible supports this definition. The Bible uses adam as the term for all human beings. Sometimes translated ‘man’ it is used in the same way we often use the male specific term to mean all human beings. I don’t think this is a just happenstance. The Bible often sees all humans as an extension of Adam. As his descendants we carry forth his same nature. In science we see the same thing in the parents passing on their genetic makeup to their child via conception and the process of DNA transference. I won’t press this much further other than to say it is a fair interpretation and most importantly both view “human beingsness” as innate and not subjective.

Now that I have clarified what I mean by human being you might be able to see where I am coming from. My point is you use ‘person’ as an ambiguous term, you agree it is ambiguous and think there should be debate over what it means to be a person. I think that debates on the ambiguity of a term when the rights of human beings (homo sapiens) is involved will undermine the rights of all. That is why in the past people talked of human rights and not personhood rights. Human rights being rights you do nothing to earn but are simply conferred based upon your being human (a being of inherent worth to God).

Since you and I were discussion how the Bible sees this issue I think it is important to reflect on your definition of personhood and what Biblical support you have for that definition, so that I can better understand from the Bible how you support your view of what it means to be a person.

(OP)
Donald, you are confused in several ways. First of all, if having unique human DNA not found in any other cells means an entity is a human being, then the sperm an egg would be human beings, since they also have unique DNA produced by the process of meiosis. Second, quoting a dictionary definition of human being obviously doesn't prove the category is a purely scientific one anymore than quote a dictionary definition of person. It is no more purely scientific than the category "person," as any definition of "human being" requires a particular set of criteria to be put forth (ex. unique human DNA, gathered into close proximity, a member of the human species, etc...") that depend on philosophical assumptions that are outside the realm of science. You fault personhood thinkers for setting forth a category defined by philosophical criteria than excludes some forms of human life, but "human being" is also a category defined by philosophical criteria that excludes some forms of human life. Why, for example, do you include the embryo but not the egg? Or why not cells in the human body? Both are living, may be genetically unique, are human life, and in the proper context may develop into a child. Yet you exclude these based on a category that depends on philosophical criteria, just as the personhood advocate does. My point here is not to argue for a particular definition of person, but to point out that both "human being" and "person" are philosophically-defined categories that will exclude some form of human life. The difference between them is semantics, and nothing more.

(Me)
I used my definition advisedly when I previously said ‘unique’ human person. An egg or any other cell has only the mother’s DNA, something I can test by science. (And we rely on this fact for court cases) The Embryo however has unique DNA from the mother, again something that can be determined scientifically. There is no contradiction in my argument. Again the official definitions and I do not mean that a toe nail or piece of hair is a human being simply because it has human DNA. Where I think you may be confused is I am not saying DNA = human being, what I am saying DNA can be used as a test to determine the child is unique from the mother and human. The embryo is not the mother and it is not a dog, it is a unique human being. This is scientifically proven and irrefutable. Is the DNA of the embryo unique? Does the embryo have human DNA? These are yes or no questions that science can easily answer. I can see nothing philosophical about them, they seem to be hard facts.

In this explanation, where is the philosophical criteria I am setting forth?

(OP)
You're not understanding my objection. Your assertion that whether or not an embryo is a human being is a strictly scientific question is wrong because how the category "human being" is defined is not strictly scientific. This is the structure of your argument:

1. A "human being" is an entity that is living, human, and possesses unique DNA from the mother and father. (a philosophical argument)

2. An embryo can be scientifically show to be living, human, and possessing unique DNA from the mother and father. (a scientific argument)

3. Therefore, the embryo is a human being. (a logical deduction)

#2 is true: the embryo can be shown to possess those characteristics. But #1 is a definition that is based on philosophical assumptions that not everyone shares (for example, James C. Peterson, the Chair of the Ethics division at McMaster University has an essay titled "Is a Human Embryo a Human Being?" in which he answers "no"). And it cannot be shown to be true by science. You assume without argument that 1 is true.

(Me)
Nice syllogism. If premise #1 is incorrect please show it. Appealing to authority won’t cut it, especially a professional in ethics and not one in biology. Just out of curiosity if he is correct and the embryo is not a human being what exactly is it? Is it a dog or a goat or a dolphin? Having read these arguments before I can only assume your point will be that it is different because of it’s developmental state. If so, I think there might be a categorical error. For example, a puppy is a dog at a different development stage not a different species. Both puppy and dog are Canis lupus familiaris. My argument is an embryo is a human being at a different developmental stage. A human being and a human embryo are both Homo sapiens.

My point has been we should not determine human rights based upon a subjective definition of personhood but rather on the concrete definition of let’s say Homo sapiens. This seems to be the safest approach.

I do appreciate your patience in explaining your point so that I can understand where you are coming from. I think I am still stuck because I am not sure why you object to my definition or how it is exactly different from yours. If Human being does not equal Homo sapiens, something I think is scientifically determinable at any stage of development, then what is a human being?

(OP)
I'm not appealing to authority to prove premise 1 is incorrect; I'm demonstrating that premise 1 is precisely the question being debated. Saying his opinion doesn't matter because he is not a biologist presumably discredits your opinion as well, in addition to being absurd. On the other hand, I do have advanced training in human biology; I'll have an M.D. from Johns Hopkins in a few months. Does that mean I'm right and you are wrong?

The question under debate here is: Does the embryo belong to a category--whether you call it person or human being is irrelevant--that gives it moral value? You enter the debate assuming without argument that it does and then proceeding with your argument on the basis of that assumption, thus engaging in circular reasoning. Your definition of human being is just as subjective as any definition of person is. And here's one problem with it: if your criteria for human being is "living, human, and possessing unique DNA from the mother and father," a definition you agreed with, then Hydatidaform moles--tumors that form from embryos--are human beings. And homo sapiens is just another word for human being, so substituting that word in does nothing to solve the problem.

(Me)
One of my points has been that we disagree on definitions, I don’t believe that human being = person. I believe the definition of human being is self evident and I use DNA to prove scientifically one point that it is unique human from the mother. I think the DNA can confirm the self evident nature of my premise and gives us a concrete way to confirm and thus not circular.

However, you avoid answer the question, what do you think a human embryo is if it is not a human being?

(OP)
Well that settles it then! Here we have this enormous debate raging among philosophers as to whether the embryo is a human being and here you come, with what credentials I'm not sure, saying the answer is self-evident! Because it has human DNA!

There's really no more to discuss at that point, other than noting that by that criterion every cell in the human body is a human being. I personally think the embryo is human life (as are all cells in the human body) but that it is special because it has the potential to become a human being, giving it an increasing amount of moral value as development proceeds in the womb.

 It should be noted though that the majority of embryos (over 50%) spontaneously miscarry and are passed with the monthly menstrual flow. Since you believe embryos have the same moral worth as children, I'd be curious to know what you think about the fact that those who share your position, and presumably you yourself, evince no concern at all about studying and trying to address what would be the number 1 killer in history.

Or to pose another question--your position that embryos are humans requires you to believe that abortion in America is an atrocity with nearly ten times the lives lost as the Holocaust. And you think voting for Republicans and debating people online is a proportional and adequate response to a holocaust that has continued unabated for 40 years? To the slaughter of tens of millions of people?

(Me)
Obviously the question is not settled. There are philosophers, ethicist, biologists and medical doctors on both sides of this debate. I have read from both sides and I think we should be able to follow the logic to the most rational conclusion simply based on the logic and not the credentials of the proponent of the view.

We are going in circles on the DNA issue. If I cut my finger off, I would not call the finger a human being. Yes it would have Human DNA but it is only a part of a Human being, or was if I cut it off. By self-evident I mean no one in their right mind would look at the finger and say look at the human being.

Here is a better explanation of the categorical error. When I use the term human being I mean to differentiate the being from a dog, cat, elephant or even dolphin. The term then seeks to differentiate an animal by the category of species. When I use the word embryo, adult, child, adolescent, or senior I mean to differentiate by the category of development of the being. You seem to be using the species category term of human being to apply it to a development level of a being to come up with moral worth definition.

I mentioned dolphin’s because there are those today who argue that dolphins are persons such as Thomas White, philosopher at Loyola Marymount University, who made the argument that dolphins aren't merely like people; they may actually be people, or he calls them, "nonhuman persons." His use of the term "nonhuman persons," seems to indicate the same categorical understanding I have and yet he would agree with you on the moral worth distinction for “person.”

Sorry, I am not a Republican and I don’t vote party line. I am curious where I could find your definition of person in the Bible. The Bible address philosophy and you say human being (person) is a philosophical question, so there must be something there. Even more curious to me is, do you think that God finds abortion morally good, bad or neutral?

(Chuck)
Autobiographical point: I became pro-life in the 1970's before it was the consensus among evangelicals, and it was a Catholic who convinced me. I had not read Schaeffer. My point is that evangelicals entered the pro-life fold for a variety of reasons -- including philosophical. Perhaps several leaders on the Right joined the fold for the reasons mentioned in this article, but that is a historic curiosity and doesn't address the merits of the argument. The statement "with what credentials I'm not sure" strikes me as strange at best. We don't need credentials to render an opinion on this subject. No matter what his credentials are, Donald Hester's argument that the embryo is composed of human DNA is powerful. It seems to me that any doubt should favor the preservation of the embryonic life. Concerning the reference to the spontaneous miscarriage of 50% of all embryos, we should remind ourselves that a similar figure applied to the death of children in previous centuries. No reasonable person used that as justification for taking their life.

(OP)
Yes but they would use that as a justification to try to save those lives, something which those who believe life begins at conception show no concern about. And again, if simply having human DNA makes something a human being, then every cell in our bodies is a human being. I only bring up credentials because Dinald had earlier summarily dismissed the opinion of a respected bioethicist because that person was not a biologist.

(Me)
I am not sure how you know I have no concern for miscarriages. My wife and I lost our first child to a miscarriage, while not as emotionally taxing as having lost a child of let say a 10 year old, it was still a loss we mourned. That being said there is a difference between miscarriage and abortion in that one is intentional (a moral decision is made) verse something that is accidental.

My argument is NOT that DNA = human being. My argument is DNA can show the embryo is a human being without the need to appeal to philosophy. With DNA we can determine that 1.) An embryo is a human being and 2.) Distinct from the mother.

My other argument is the term ‘Human Being’ does not mean a development stage or moral value judgment on a life. Human being in the colloquial use and technical definition is a determination of species of animal.

It may have seemed like I was dismissing the credential, for that I apologize. What I was attempting to do was demonstrate the ‘appeal to authority’ fallacy. In my subsequent comments I clarified that no matter what an expert says we should be able to follow the logic of their arguments to determine the rationality of their claim.

BTW OP I appreciate your time in explaining your position. Through this discussion I think I better clarified my position. I also think it is important for people on both sides of this issue to discuss it without the tempers, accusations, malice, or divisiveness.

I had a long dialogue with an Atheist here in PDF form. I did change the names of the participants for privacy reasons. The conversation started with a post from a friend of mine that turned into an interesting dialogue. I have kept all of the posts even the ‘Troll’ posts, to preserve the feel and flow of the conversation.

The conversation takes some time to get going, but, the bulk of the 23,000 plus words of the conversation is Sam’s objections to Christianity and his support for Atheism. Normally I would not take the time to try and address the numerous assertions he made. However, a number of people were interested and in asynchronous conversation more time can be spent addressing them.

Some interesting comments by Sam included

• Christianity barrowed from Paganism, implied is that this disproves Christianity
• Science and Religion are at odds (specific example of Galileo)
• He wants scientific evidence for God
• Christians are trying to force their beliefs on others
• The Bible is hopelessly corrupt
• Judeo-Christian ethnics are bad for society
• God should show Himself
• Free will is a myth
• America's Founding Fathers were Deists

I addressed all of these and others. If I did not refute his claims, I gave him at least an alternate explanations that should raise some doubts on his positions.

Click here for PDF

My hope is that this open, honest and civil dialogue about the issue of abortion will benefit people who struggle with this issue as they carefully consider and weigh both sides of this issue.

Original post: What issues are people basing their vote on? Social, economic or foreign policy? Which one is more important?

P1: Economic

Me: Seems like it should be economic. I think without a strong economy social matters won’t matter much and foreign policy would be unenforceable without a strong economy.

P2: Social. Without strong social policies, you can't have a strong economy.

Me: I guess it depends on what you mean by social issues, I can make the case that without strong ethics a strong economy is not possible. Sure you can pass all kinds of laws but if people can’t self-govern they then need to be governed. That has always led to impoverished conditions. If you go beyond ethics to specific contemporary issues, I would not agree. Not that the contemporary issues don’t have an ethical aspect. However, economically we were fine before those issues arose. That leads me to believe those issues don’t have a large influence on economics.

P3: I don't believe for one moment that Republicans spend less or have smaller government than Democrats. So, if we're just choosing between D and R, and both sides continue to send us deeper into the shitter economically, I vote based on social and foreign policy issues. If we were to throw in some third-party candidates, I would have to actually give some thought to who I would vote for, but I don't see any third-party candidates being a real contender under our current political setup. :(

Me: What type of foreign policy would you propose?

P2: My main social issues here are schools and abortion rights. I would argue that children who receive a good education are less likely to end up in prison or on government assistance, and pay more into taxes because they have higher paying jobs. So decent schools for everyone is a social issue that we should fund better than we do. Abortion rights are important, because if a woman doesn't have the right to determine whether she wants to have more children, then not only do we have a lot more unwanted children, many born into homes without adequate funds, we also have women who cannot go to school or get jobs, because they are home taking care of children. One could argue that that's contraception, not abortion, but I think that the same government that wants to deny one, wants to deny the other.

P3: Me? I align much more with the Libertarians when it comes to foreign policy.

Me: P2, sorry I don't see how abortion rights helps or hinders the economy. Maybe I am missing something there. I also don’t see schools as a social issue especially if you feel they need more funding. Education is important for Jobs I agree but if we think it is a funding issue then it is economic. If you think the schools teaching philosophy is wrong or needs to change then I would see it as a social issue.

P2: http://www.rooseveltinstitute.org/new-roosevelt/access-contraception-economic-issue

Me: P3, in theory as a libertarian I tend to agree, however, I don’t know if it is a tenable position anymore. If we retreat into our boarders and pretend the rest of the world does not exist what would happen? Would Iran wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Would China continue to exploit 3rd world countries and drain natural resources from those countries? The issue about foreign policy is about stability in the world. Given history and human nature 100% peace and stability is impossible. Without a strong economy and some reasonably decent treatment of foreign countries there would be war around the world. Some may say the United States is imperialistic. That may be true but do you think if we weren’t no other country would fill the void? Pax Romana. This is the reason why Obama broke his promise to get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan. He couldn’t do it with creating massive instability in the region.

P2: http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/200604dickenssawhill.pdf

P3: Don, think of it like this: There are over a million abortions performed each year (a sad statistic, and proof that we need more reproductive education and cheap, easy access to all forms of birth control). If every one of those children had been born, many of them to poor families, that's just that many more children being taken care of by welfare, food stamps, and medicaid -- a huge drain on the economy. I think our best bet to end abortions is not to make them illegal (which does little to reduce the number of abortions performed, and greatly increases the number of dead women AND fetuses), but to make them unneeded through education, affordable health care, and adequate social programs.

Me: Not to poison the well but didn’t the Roosevelt’s fund Margret Sanger’s eugenics here in the United States?

P2: I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion, though...

P3: Iraq and Afghanistan are a different beast now because we did so much to create instability in the region. However, I would like to see the US do a lot less invading and a lot more diplomacy wherever possible. I think there is a huge area between "police of the world" and "hunkering down ignoring the world."

Me: P2, your right, I just not sure I would consider them to be unbiased.

P3: *cough* you're *cough* :P

Me: P3 who should be the police of the world then? Or should we let Iran do what they want with Israel?

Me: P3 your idea of ending abortion by education does not seem to be rational. Do you really think education would end it? I don’t think it would. I think it is a stretch. The only real question is when is ok to take the life of an innocent human being. Is being poor a reason?

P3: There shouldn't be just one "police of the world" at all. It should be a group of nations, such as the UN or something similar.

Me: The UN has not troops or money. They have to borrow from us.

P3: Education alone? Not at all. You have to look at all the reasons a woman chooses to have an abortion and then find solutions to those. Just making it illegal accomplishes nothing other than killing women. If your goal is killing off the whores who opened their legs, then making it illegal is a great solution. If your goal is to protect ALL stages of life, then reducing abortion can only be brought about through comprehensive education policies, accessible and affordable health care (prenatal, psychiatric, etc.), and social programs.

Me: The UN has sanctions but often they don’t produce the desired results. Plus China and Russia veto any action.

Me: P3, you didn't answer my questions. When is ok to take the life of an innocent human being?

P3: I personally don't think it's ever okay. But I realize that not everyone shares my views on when a fetus is a human and when not. I think that's a decision that should be left between a woman and her doctor. At the same time, I think that we need to work hard to reduce the reasons women make that choice in the first place. Think about this practically. The way things are now, there are a lot of abortions. Making it illegal would have little impact on the number of abortions performed, but a great impact on the number of dead women. So approaching this from a legal standpoint, we need to keep it legal while at the same time working hard to reduce the need for abortions. THAT is how I can help to save innocent lives.

Me: If it is never ok then why would we allow it?

Me: Isn’t the point of law to protect the innocent?

P3: You're talking in ideals. I'm looking at reality. The reality of the situation is that making abortion illegal will just result in more dead women, with little affect on the number of dead fetuses. What has that accomplished, aside from MORE death? I feel like a broken record here. If you want to protect innocent unborn children, you have to reduce the CAUSE of abortions. You have to make women not WANT to get one and not feel so desperate that they NEED one. You need to educate women about their bodies so they don't get pregnant in the first place. You need to provide women (and men) with as much contraception as they need to prevent unwanted pregnancy. If your goal is to reduce the number of abortions, this is the only way. I value ALL life, and I'm not into slut-shaming. I want to be realistic and create laws that ACTUALLY protect the innocent by reducing the number of abortions.

Me: What proof do you have that there will be more dead woman? It sounds like you are saying it is ok to take an innocent human life if the perpetrator might hurt or kill them themself. If we apply that logic to other crimes we would not make bank robbery illegal because banks robbers might get hurt. We should really just focus on the cause of them being a bank robber instead of making it against the law. What is sounds like to me is it IS alright to take the life of an innocent human being if it what a person thinks is best for them.

P3: No, what I'm saying is that no one should get an abortion because I believe it's killing an innocent life. And in order to achieve the goal of no abortions, I support social programs, education, and access to healthcare that will lead to a great decrease in the number performed. Where are you getting that I think it's okay to take a life? I'm only arguing for what is PROVEN to work (see Europe) at reducing abortions. Again, if you want fewer abortions, you reduce the reasons that women seek them in the first place. If you just make them illegal, all you're saying is that women dying in alleys and from drinking lysol somehow deserve it (slut-shaming).

P3: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/12/4/gpr120402.html

Me: Does Europe still have abortions? Is one human life worth less than two? Maybe you won’t hurt or kill an innocent human being but other people would. Shouldn’t we do something to stop them from killing an innocent human being beyond just trying to low the numbers of killing?

P3: Many European countries have a much lower per-capita abortion rate than the US. Again, making abortion illegal will not stop it. How do you propose to make the abortion rate 0? Aside from waving a magic wand, the next best bet is to reduce the need for abortions by reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies, and increasing the support for women who want to CTT but don't feel they can (emotionally, financially, etc).

Me: I am not saying that woman deserve to die (slut-shamming).

P3: That's what happens when abortions are illegal. Then you have two dead instead of one. I am "pro-life" in the sense that I place value on ALL life and want to decrease the number of deaths of all living people (born and unborn).

Me: Do we create laws and really think crime will be zero? No we don’t but it is not a reason not to have a law.

Me: Who will speak for the innocent? Who will stand up for their right to life? If you are “pro-life” why would you support the only one who has a choice of life and death for the other?

P3: I support reducing abortions in the only way that works. Again, if you want to save lives, you reduce the REASONS women get abortions. If you actually care about saving lives (women and unborn children), you would do everything in your power to decrease the deaths. Making abortion illegal is not the way you accomplish that. Hundreds of years of history shows this. If you want to bury your head in the sand and just hope that it will "go away" if you wish hard enough, be my guest. But it won't do squat. You have to educate and support these women if you want to reduce abortions (and deaths via back-alley and at-home abortions).

P3: I support the rights of the unborn by supporting policies that are proven to decrease abortions. It won't happen overnight, but perhaps in a few decades or a century, by continuing to support women and their reproductive health and knowledge, we can come to a point where it isn't needed any more.

Me: So it is ok to take the life of an innocent human being if we have not addressed the reasons why woman want to take the life of an innocent human being that they conceived?

P3: /sigh. Where on earth are you getting that from?

P3: If I thought it was "ok" why on earth would I be fighting for reducing the number of abortions?

P2: Personally, I believe that the issue in the abortion debate is whose rights are paramount, the unborn child's, or the mother's? The child's right to life vs. the mother's right to control her own body and reproduction. Innocent vs. guilty shouldn't be a part of it. To tell a fully grown and developed person that her rights are subservient to those of the child developing inside of her is to say that she is less than the child. If it were possible to beam that baby out, and put it in the uterus of a woman who wanted a child, we'd live in a perfect world. But we don't. I do agree with Sarah that education is key, and even more important is access to free or at least affordable contraception. When people have access to these things, abortion rates and teen pregnancies go down. But so many people focus on the teen pregnancy, they ignore a woman who has 3 kids already, her birth control fails, and she doesn't want another child. Should the family be forced to have an unwanted child? I don't think so. The only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinence. My great grandmother resorted to that after 6 pregnancies in 7 years. I don't think either she or her husband were too thrilled about that solution, but it's the only one that was available to them.

Me: I am not burying my head in the sand hundreds of years of history has shown that laws and punishments ARE a deterrent. Plus your argument keeps coming around to the idea that it is ok to take the life of an innocent human being because it is a practical way to reduce abortions. Maybe the keep word is innocent. An INNOCENT human life is killed.

Me: I am not saying we should not do what we can to give woman reasons not to have abortions or prevent pregnancy. Why not have a law as well? A law to protect the innocent.

P3: Where did I say that it's okay to take a life because it's a way to reduce abortions? I don't believe those words have ever come from my fingers. I said that the way to reduce abortions is to educate, empower, and support women so that there is no NEED for abortions. Where are you getting that I think it's all fine and dandy to get an abortion? Am I being misunderstood? I cannot even comprehend where you are getting that.

P3: Because reality, history, and evidence suggest that just making abortion illegal across the board only has a small affect on the number of abortions, while having a huge affect on the number of dead women. If you're cool with more death, that's fine. I, on the other hand, would like to reduce the death.

Me: P2, how do we determine whose rights are paramount? Who should determine that? So you agree the child has rights? And the mothers right to… (whatever reason she comes up with) over rides the child’s right to life?

Me: P3, I am just following your conclusions to their logical ends. If there is no excuse for taking the life of an innocent human being why do you keep saying there is a reason mainly the possibility the mother might harm herself in an illegal abortion? So it is OK in your worldview for someone else to take the life of an innocent human being.

P2: Yes. A fully formed human being who can survive on her own has rights that override those of an unborn child. That is how we determine whose rights are paramount. If there were a way to separate them, that would be awesome. But we can't, so someone has to decide. You decide the rights of the child are more important than the rights of the mother. I disagree.

Me: P2, what about a child of 6 months? Does the mother have the right to take that life? It is not fully formed and can't live on its own either.

Me: P2, I do not think that any all rights are equal. Do you? I do think the right to life is greater than the right to more disposable income. Mother’s or child’s right to life should be equal unless we want to define a child as something less than human.

P3: That is not at all the logical end to my argument. My point is that we need to reduce the number of abortions. Period. Full stop. Now, looking at this objectively, whether or not abortion remains legal or illegal has little affect on the rate of abortions performed. By saying that I wish them to remain legal is NOT saying that I support them or think it's okay to have one. I just know, from facts and research, that illegal = more deaths, while legal = fewer deaths. Looking at it from an "all life is sacred" point of view, I support the side the results in the fewest deaths. Again, that does not mean I like abortions or think they are okay. In fact, I support policies that would actually have an affect on reducing, and possibly eventually ending, abortions. Isn't that the goal we all have? Why choose a method that will never get us to our goal, when there is one that can and will?

P2: No, not a baby that has been born. The mother's right to her body is no longer the issue. When the baby is 6 months old, then the child's right to life doesn't come into direct conflict with the mother's rights.

Me: P3, if that is true why not do both? Education and giving woman reasons not to get pregnant and a law? Wouldn’t that give us the best results?

P2: Disposable income? What about being able to feed the children you have first? What about being able to attend college and work? What about not being forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth? You make it sound like a flippant decision that loose women make lightly. I would disagree, and I think that above all, a woman has the right to decide if she is going to go through all of that or not. No matter her reasons, be they noble or foolish.

Me: P2, why does or how does the location of a child increase or decrease the Child’s right to life? This is actually interesting article on this topic http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411 Basically The Journal of Medical Ethics has an article that states that the reason given for an abortion are no different than the arguments for after-birth abortions.

P3: As it stands right now, making it illegal would do more harm than good. But if we ever get to the point where all women have the financial and mental support to carry a pregnancy to term, and pregnancy was never a life-threatening condition, I might be able to get behind that. I just think that's still a long way off. In the meantime, I am coming at this from a purely practical perspective: the goal is fewer deaths, so I support the policies that achieve that result. Period.

P2: I think that's a ridiculous argument, actually. The mother has the right to decide whether she wants to have a baby or not. The state should not be able to decide that for her. The very real right to life of the baby are not made less real, it's just that the very real right of the mother are in direct opposition. The right of the mother to not have children is not in opposition to her child's right to life once it is born. Then she can put it up for adoption, have it raised by her parents (if they're willing), etc. It is ONLY when the child is still within her body, and there is NO way for both people's rights to be honored, that, sadly, hers take precedence.

Me: P2, I don’t know what mothers are make flippant decisions. I don’t know what they are thinking, but I can’t conceive of a reason why a mother should be able to kill her child. Nor do I think it is good policy of the government to make umpteen exceptions for a mother to take the life of her child.

P2: Well, I'll agree that exceptions are trying to have it both ways. If it's murder when you conceived consensually, it's still murder when rape or incest were the cause. But I do think, if a mother does not want to have a child, she should not be forced to do so.

Me: P2, but why does the location matter? You said it is her child. Is it an innocent life? We shouldn’t protect an innocent life simple based upon its location. Am I missing something?

P2: Yes. You are missing that the child's right to life is in direct opposition to the mother's right to her own body and future. Period. They are both very valid rights. It's a tragic situation. But they cannot, CAN NOT, both be satisfied. If she does not want to give birth, and the baby wants to be born, there is no way for them both to have their rights. Once the baby is out, there are many, many ways for them both to have their rights.

Me: P3, I think you are making my point, you are not pro-life. You are equivocating the term to mean something less than someone who is pro-life. You do think it is ok to take the life of an innocent human so long as it reduces the number of deaths. So, if we apply that logic we should have just given Germans more reasons not to kill Jews instead of stopping them with force? Because that would have worked. BTW lots of American men and woman died to protect the Jews right to life.

Me: P2, “child's right to life is in direct opposition to the mother's right to her own body and future.” I get that, I just don’t see the mother’s right to her body or future is greater than the life of her child. Being a parent is about sacrifice. I should ask what you mean buy future. Is that a nice way to wrap what is essential greed with a nice bow? I mean more disposable income over the life of another child, that seems selfish and greed based to me. I am not saying that all woman have that as a reason but I think greed will account for most of them. It is not mother’s right to life and her child’s right to life it is a mothers “future” verse the life of her child. I hate to call it greed because that sounds terrible on the mother’s part but I really seems to be correct.

P2: I don't think it's greed to want to have control over your own life, your own body, and your own reproduction. Perhaps you do. Her future? By that I mean, she doesn't want (more) children. (I put more in parenthesis because some women who have abortions already have children, others do not, and I want to acknowledge both possibilities.) I don't think it's greed to want to have some control over your life and your future. Being a parent is indeed about sacrifice. What if you do not want that sacrifice? What if you do not want to be a parent? You have that right. It's a complicated, sticky issue. But to use the term 'innocent' every time you talk about the child, and the term 'greed' when you talk about the mother, brings a level of blame into it that I do not think belongs here. There is no need to blame a woman for getting pregnant, which is a pretty bow for what I'm hearing. But when it comes down to it, at a very base level, I think that a woman's greed when it comes to how she is going to live her own life takes precedent over the right of her unborn child to be born. Anything we can do to make abortions less common is a good thing, short of denying women the right to have control over their bodies and their reproductive life.

Me: P2, I don’t have problems with woman having control over their lives, bodies or reproductive provided it does not take the life of an innocent child. The reasons you gave above all seem to be selfish (a border and better term than greed). You are trying to change the terms you use to make it sound better. “Reproductive life” sounds better than killing her “child”. You are the one who call it a child. That’s call it what it is and stop trying to whitewash what we are talking about. I think a child’s right to life supersedes any right of the mother short of the mother’s right to life.

P2: So we agree that it's a matter of rights. We just disagree about whose rights are paramount. I think it's the mother's rights, you think it's the child's. That's fine. So, to your original question, what issue is most important to you? This discussion was mainly about social issues, but I'm not sure you ever had the chance to say what was most important to you. Social, economic, or foreign?

P2 (And I don't think I've whitewashed anything...I called it a child, I said I think that exceptions are just politics. I think ending a life is tragic. But I think forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child to term and go through labor is tragic as well.)

Me: I am grateful that you are so candid about your position. I am just surprised that you don’t see something wrong with the idea that the rights of some people supersede the right to life to an innocent child. I appreciate your stance, but I feel it is important that someone stand up for those innocent children that cannot exercise their rights.

Me: I don’t think the killing of a child as tragic, I think it is wrong or even evil. Life is full of choices and all choices have consequences. Taking the life of a child should not be an alternative to avoid the consequences of our choices.

P2: What about rape and incest, where the consequences have no relation to the mother's choice? I've said what I think, but you're saying that abortion is an alternative to consequences of choices.

P2: And I feel very strongly about this issue, and I do appreciate your passion towards your view. I wish there were a way to bring our views in line with each other. Alas, it can not be. Women cannot have the full right to control their bodies if abortion is illegal. The lives of unborn children cannot have the full right to be born if women have the right to control their bodies. That's the tragic part, to me, that there is truly no good answer. At the end of it all, I am absolutely unwilling to say that a woman who has had an abortion is evil.

Me: I was wondering why that had not come up yet. Fist this is a logical fallacy taking a minority event as justification for all. Logic issues aside. Do you think it right to punish a child for the crimes of the father?

P2: I didn't bring it up because I don't think it's a real issue. As I said before, I think it's politics. But you brought the matter of choices, and consequences of those choices up, so I wondered what you felt.

Me: So, do you think it right to punish a child for the crimes of the father?

Me: P2, you are right everyone can’t have every right because it will infringe on the rights of others. Our country was founded on the principle that you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness provided it does not infringe on the right s of others. This is the essence of the libertarian platform. The child’s rights are being infringed. This is the most basic of all rights and it can’t be superseded otherwise all other rights are meaningless. If you could see that it is the most basic and necessary right I think you would see that it should not be superseded.

P2: I see your point, but I disagree with your conclusions. I was raised in a libertarian, pro-choice household. The majority of libertarians are pro choice, because they value individual rights. I don't consider myself libertarian any more, and haven't for a long time. But I cut my teeth on the principles of it, and I understand it. I'm not saying you don't, just that I do understand the issues and the politics involved. Thanks for a spirited discussion tonight, it's been a lot more reasoned than that on the TV, that's for sure. :)

Me: I know many Libertarians live a contradiction. They have not followed their stated ideals to their logical conclusion.

P2: Well, your interpretation of the logical conclusion. Not theirs. I don't think all logical conclusions are the same.

Me: Without the right to life no other right matter. We can just kill people and they never have an opportunity to practice any other right. What is tragic is there is a war against women, especially the unborn women who never get any rights.

Me: Please tell me how my logical conclusion is wrong. I am a rational person, I can handle it. If libertarians believe that we have the right to do as we wish provided we don’t infringe upon the rights of others, how does the pro-life position not follow? The only way that follows is if all rights are viewed as equal. However, other than in this discussion I have never had anyone make the claim that the right to buy a car supersedes the right of a life. Or a less drastic example of the right to free speech supersedes the right to life. In fact, our government recognizes you don’t have the right to shout “fire” in a crowded theater because someone might get hurt or killed. In other words, their right to life and safety (Basic human needs) supersedes the free speech rights of the individual yelling “fire”.

Me: To clarify and put it as plainly as possible. If the unborn is not a human person, no justification for abortion is necessary. However, if the unborn is a child, no justification for abortion is adequate.

P2: I didn't say your logical conclusion was wrong, so much as that it does not agree with mine or that of the pro-choice libertarians. I don't think anyone said the right to buy a car, or the right to free speech, superseded the right to life, though certainly people have died for the right to free speech, as you well know, as you have served our country in the military, which I have not. I do think you're rational and can handle it, I just think that one person's logical conclusion is not the same as another person's. In my opinion, the right to liberty over my own body supersedes the right of the UNBORN child. A woman should not be forced to carry a life inside of her that she does not want. That is the argument. The right to life of the unborn child does NOT supersede the woman's right to freedom. The definition of unborn child = person is mostly semantics, and I don't like to get pulled into that argument, because I can see both sides. That unborn child, fetus, embryo, would be a person if they were allowed to be born, and to pretend otherwise is fallacious. But to say that the unborn child has the same rights as the woman carrying it is wrong. I understand that you do not agree on this, but that is how I feel.

Me: I don’t think logic is not the issue it is the presuppositions that are different. Logic is not opinion based where presuppositions are. Logic is just the tool.

Me: I think we are going back in a circle now, but maybe we did not explore the depth of this issue. I don’t see the location of the child as an adequate justification for taking the life of a child. Giubilini and Minerva make a convincing argument that any argument for abortion is valid for what they call “after birth abortion”. Their argument is valid and logically flows even if it is disturbing. I don’t see a difference of location to be compelling and neither do they. So why is it different for you?

P2: See, we're never going to agree. You do not see the location of the child as being the crux of the issue, and I see it as the entire issue. I disagree with their argument and find it silly. It is different because a woman is being forced to carry a life form inside of her body that she does. not. want. That's liberty. That's privacy. That is the entire issue.

P4: Interesting discussion. So if a baby is aborted at 7 months it does not have the right to life. But if it is born prematurely at 7 months it does? Isn't that rather arbitrary?

P2: Not arbitrary. At 7 months pregnancy, it is still inside the mother, and her rights take precedent. If it is born, her rights are no longer infringed by the baby's rights. But abortions of 7 month old fetuses are extremely rare, and generally involve cases when the baby would not survive, or the mother would not survive, or both. They are not generally done because a woman has decided that she doesn't want to have a baby.

P4: The rarity of something is irrelevant to whether it is right or wrong. The same sustainable baby still lives or dies at the whim of the mother for any reason. By definition - arbitrary. And what I get from this discussion is that women get abortions not because of what is happening inside their bodies but of the consequences of what happens outside their bodies i.e.being responsible for the baby. So the right being claimed is not really about their bodies but about the ability to decide whether to be a mother or not. Which I think is a different discussion.

Me: P2, it has gone from a child to a “life form" now. Either way it is a distinct life form or human being than the mother. It is not the mothers body that is being killed it is a child. This is a biological fact.

Me: P2, so let me see if I can sum up your position. It is ok for a mother to take the life of her child only when it is in her uterus. Any other time or place is wrong. Because any right of the mother outweighs the life of her child only in utero. After the child is born the right of the child to life supersedes all of the mother’s rights. Is that your position?

P2: Yes, that is my position.

Me: It seems in your position a great amount of rights transfer only after birth. The child has no rights until it is born?

P2: Not if the child's rights are in violation with the mother's. It's not that I don't think the child has any rights...it's that when the choice has to be made between hers and the baby's, hers take precedence.

Me: What kinds of rights does the unborn child have then?

Me: What I don’t get is how you or anyone justifies that birth is the critical factor. Who’s to say Giubilini and Minerva are wrong? You pick birth they pick a few months after and Alex Sanger even longer after birth. All three use the same arguments. So picking the time i.e. birth, seems arbitrary to me. How are your arguments different from Giubilini and Minerva or Sanger?

P2: Sigh. Can we agree to disagree here? It seems to me like you are a man who really enjoys political arguments, and I am a woman who really, really does not. I have tried to make my point, which is that I think the woman has rights while she is carrying the baby. Her rights come first. That is all. Giubilini and Minerva are arguing a stupid point, trying to trap people who believe in a woman's right to choose into saying that abortion is murder, and therefore, murder of anyone who is dependent upon them is fine. And how is my arguing that a woman has the right to control her body the same as someone arguing that it's ok to kill a 6 month old baby? It's not the same at all. The critical factor is, it's HER BODY, HER CHOICE.

Me: P2, I think we agree that we disagree. BTW I appreciate your taking the time to discuss this frankly and honestly without malice. I like to discuss issues because that is how we learn and avoid counterproductive conflicts. I would like to add one final point if I could. Your last statement is just simple not accurate. It is not HER BODY that is the issue here, it is the CHILD’S BODY that is. Second, her choice for what? Choice sounds so noble and liberty affirming. Well until you realize the CHOCIE is to take the life of an INNOCENT CHILD. HER CHOICE is meaningless without what the CHOICE is really about. This becomes a misleading shell game of words. I guess you are right we will just disagree, hopefully someone else finds these posts helpful as they carefully consider and weigh both side of this issue.

Me: “Slavery consists in being subject to the will of another…” Thomas Paine

Book Review: Finding God in Ancient China by Chan Kei Thong with Charlene L. Fu

“Finding God in Ancient China: How the Ancient Chinese Worshiped the God of the Bible,” by Chan Kei Thong with Charlene L. Fu, caught my eye after I had seen some interesting websites that made a connection between the Genesis flood account and Chines pictographic characters (logograms).

Thesis
The thesis of the book is, “we will show that there is sufficient light peeking through the windows of general revelation in Chinese history, records, literature, and practices to convince one to take the next step, into the sunlight of God’s special revelation.”(40)

What this book is not saying
This book is not making the claim that there is more than one way to God. The claim is that the ancient Chinese had a rudimentary knowledge of the one true God that would have come from the revelation up to the point of their migration to the steps of China.

Chapter 1
The book starts with an explanation of the differences between myths, legends, and history. The book transitions into an explanation of general and special revelation of God. These become key points and a foundation for moving forward with their thesis. The book then promises to review the “signposts” that point to their thesis.

Chapter 2
Chapter two gives us a brief overview of the pictographic and ideographic nature of the Chinese written language. Further, the authors show how some of these characters correlate to the Genesis record and the basic tenants of sin, forgiveness, sacrifice, redemption, and salvation. The authors rightfully acknowledge that this can be dismissed as circumstantial evidence, however, “these characters should, however, compel us to seek further evidence within the Chinese culture to see if, in fact, the ancient Chinese worshipped the One True God.”(71)

Chapter 3
Chapter three addresses the name and concept of God for the ancient Chinese. The name given to God in Chinese is 皇天上帝 (Huang Tian Shang Di) which translates to Supreme Lord of the Great Heaven. Often, He is referred to only as 上帝 (Shang Di). For the ancient Chinese, this is the Creator God who is above and distinct from all other lesser gods (shen or spirits). The chapter continues with parallels between Shang Di and the Creator God of the Hebrews and Christians.

“We saw an abundance of references that strikingly show how the attributes of Shang Di (Tian) match those of the One True God of the Bible, leading us to the conclusion that Shang Di (Tian) is the general revelation to the Chinese people of the same God worshipped by the Hebrews of the Old Testament and the Christians of the New Testament.”(105) The author finally laments “It is unfortunate, therefore, that the Chinese have not worshipped this God alone; they have also worshipped a multitude of other beings. …many Chinese around the world have fallen under the power of a host of fearful superstitions and syncretistic religious beliefs.”(105)

Chapter 4
Chapter 4 compares the Great Border Sacrifice at the Temple of Heaven (which should actually be translated “Alter of Heaven”) with the Old Testament sacrifices to God. They conclude this chapter with this thought, “I found striking similarities in the ceremonies associated with sacrifices performed by the ancient Chinese and the ancient Hebrews. These very discoveries, though, raised further questions. Where did the concepts of substitutionary death – that is, an innocent dying for the guilty –and of atoning death – the requirement of death to pay for sin – originate?”(151)

Chapter 5
Chapter five covers the next “signpost” which is the blood covenant. The chapter explores the parallels in the covenants in the Bible and the rituals performed by the ancient Chinese. They conclude “The parallels between China’s practice of covenants and God’s perfect revelation of covenants in the Holy Scriptures are vivid and eloquent. God uses these dramatic ceremonies to teach eternal principles that were finally fulfilled in Jesus Christ.”(179)

Chapter 6
In chapter six, the authors explore the actions and discoveries of some of the first missionaries to China. In particular, they explore the Jesuit missionary Matteo Ricci (1550-1610) and his missional approach. Ricci’s approach was to demonstrate respect for the Chinese people and culture by such things as learning the native language. This was not common-place for most missionaries of the time. Ricci’s approach was not to convert the Chinese to a Western Culture Christianity but to a Chinese Christianity. (I have a past post on Christianity and the fact that it is culturally agnostic to a point). Ricci’s work, The True Meaning of the Lord of Heaven, is in part, a basis for this book.

“Therefore, having leafed through a great number of ancient books, it is quite clear to me that the Sovereign on High and the Lord of Heaven are different only in name.” “He who is called Lord of Heaven in my humble country is He who is called Shang-Di in Chinese.” - Matteo Ricci, The True Meaning of the Lord of Heaven

Others such as Johann Adam Schall von Bell (1591-1666), Ferdinand Verbiest (1623-1688), and James Legge (1815-1897) built on the goodwill built by Ricci. Particular for Legge, the key to understanding Chinese thought was by reading the classic works.

“I maintain that the Chinese do know the true God, and have a word in their language answering to our word God, to the Hebrew Elohim, and the Greek Theos.” - James Legge

Chapter 7
In this chapter the authors explore how the ancient Chinese understanding of God played a role in politics. In fact, I think this was one of my favorite chapters. The ancient Chinese had a concept they called the Mandate of Heaven 天命 (Tian Ming). This concept was that the ruler was given power by God to rule. This, however, did not mean that the emperor was free to do whatever he wanted. The concept included Tian Xia Wei Gong (Righteousness Rules), which meant that he was to be a righteous and virtuous ruler. If the emperor was not righteous in his rule, he was seen as having lost the Mandate of Heaven. This form of meritocracy is quite appealing to me. The person who was to be the next ruler was based upon that person’s merit, 禪讓 (Shan Rang), not their genealogy, wealth, or even popularity. The concept of 禪讓 (Shan Rang) is that the emperor was above all else, a servant, albeit the servant-leader.(241)

I have to admit, my biased libertarian bent, leads me to an affinity for the Mandate of Heaven.

Chapter 8
In this chapter, aptly entitled ‘Enter the Dragon,’ the authors show how the original worship of Shang Di was corrupted by the dragon cults. As you might bet, they show there are many parallels between the dragon in the Bible and those of ancient China. Much of China’s original heritage has been lost to the dragon and today, you see the principle of the dragon prominent in Chinese culture, government, and business. “Power, pleasure, and position are very enticing. But, they do not last. Like the dragon, they do not serve us; we end up serving them when we pursue them.”(291)

Chapter 9
The book finishes with a discussion of the parallel in the concepts of truth and some astronomy. The author relates a story of a doctoral student who made the statement, “The Chinese Shang Di cannot be the same as the God of the Bible because the latter is a Western deity.” The author, then, offers an illustration of two cups. If he made the claim that both cups are made up of the same material and you objected, how would you resolve the difference? The answer is, you break-down the composition of both cups and, if they prove to be similar or identical, then the two cups are the same. This is to say that you perform careful observation, critically examine the facts, and arrive at a logical conclusion.

“That is what we have sought to do in this chapter and indeed throughout this book. We have presented facts from China’s ancient historical records, records that secular scholars and experts agree are reliable and true, and we have arrived at our conclusions, which we have presented in this book. These facts are now before you, for you to draw your own conclusions.”(321)

My thoughts
I think this book is a primer for any apologetic, evangelistic or missionary work to people in the Chinese culture. The book is especially useful for contextualizing your message. I have to admit that I have a deeper appreciation for the richness of Chinese culture. I have to admit I find Chinese culture fascinating and I want to learn more about their culture.

Further, I find it absolutely fascinating how God works and leaves his fingerprints everywhere around the world. I think God is much like an artist; He loves the different cultures and expressions. It is amazing that, in each of the cultures around the world, God has “set them up” for the truth.

Other books have been written on this subject, however, this is the best treatment of the subject that I have found.

Point-Counterpoint: Gay Marriage

If you know me, you know I like to hear all sides of a debate. I think it is wise to gather as much data as possible and review all the evidence for and against any issue. That way you can then make an educated assessment and decision. Making decision based on your emotions is extremely dangerous. I like to take some time to think through a position and don’t rush to judgment. I don’t get fall for slick campaign rhetoric or user car salesmen tactics.

I found one of these videos very emotionally compelling and the other more logically compelling.

The first video is of Zach Wahls, a 19-year-old University of Iowa student spoke about the strength of his family during a public forum on House Joint Resolution 6 in the Iowa House of Representatives.

The second video is a response from Brett Kunkle of Stand to Reason.

What do you think about each of these videos?

John Smulo, a friend of mine, gave me a copy of a recently released book titled, “The Cross Is Not Enough: Living as Witnesses to the Resurrection” written by his friends Ross Clifford and Philip Johnson. I have to admit that the title caught my attention, and I started reading it that day. I am not finished with the book yet, but it is so jam-packed with information that I had to write down some of my thoughts before I forgot them.

Premise of the book

The book starts with the following quote:

“If the Church had contemplated the Empty Tomb as much as the Cross of its Lord, its life would have been more exhilarating and its contribution to the world more positive than has been the case.” – George Beasley-Murray

My critical-thinking mind quickly asked the question “Is this true and if so, what are the implications?”

Here are a few quick quotes to sum up their thesis:

“This book will argue, however, that the church needs to step away from the smaller pieces of the puzzle and take time to recognize and focus upon Christianity’s lynchpin.”[20]

“We intend to demonstrate in this book how the micro-pictures – morality, repentance, discipleship, apologetics, mission – although valid, only have full meaning when they have the resurrection as their fountainhead.”[21]

“We are not calling just for a refocus on the resurrection; we are calling for an understanding of the resurrection as the lynchpin of Christianity.”[35]

After reading the first chapter, I quickly realized my bias toward their view. My walk with God took a dramatic change in 1992 when I, too, realized that Christianity is more than the forgiveness of the Cross. I realized that He came to give us a new life; just as He was raised, we too shall be raised. However, it is more than a future hope. He also comes to fill our lives now. Some call this the neglected half of the Gospel. I think this book would pair nicely with books by Ian Thomas, Bob George and Steve McVey.

Symbols and focus

One of the interesting points they bring up is how to tell if people focus more on the cross or the resurrection by the symbols used in church, music and other things. I then wondered, if the resurrection was central to my faith, wouldn’t I lean more toward music and symbols that reflect the resurrection? A quick impromptu experiment might shed some light on this. If the resurrection was central to my belief, the songs I listen to should focus more on the resurrection.

I listen to my music on my iPod, I rate my favorite music, and iTunes counts the number of times I listen to a song. So, I opened up iTunes to see what my most-listened-to favorite songs were. Based on the authors’ premise, I found some interesting and predictable results. According to my non-scientific, impromptu experiment, my music listening habits are in line with a resurrection central mindset.

My number-one-listened-to song was Blessed Redeemer by Casting Crowns. With lyrics like “Seems now I see Him on Calvary's tree” it definitely seems like the focus is on the cross. However, looking at my other top listened-to songs with lyrics like:

“Jesus has overcome and the grave is overwhelmed, the victory is won He is risen from the dead, and I will rise when, He calls my name, no more sorrow, no more pain, I will rise on eagles' wings, before my God fall on my knees, and rise I will rise.” - I Will Rise by Chris Tomlin

“You called and you shouted, broke through my deafness, now I’m breathing in, and breathing out, I’m alive again!” - Alive Again by Matt Meher

“He rose & conquered the grave, Jesus conquered the grave” “We're singing for the glory of the risen King” - Mighty to Save

And the most obvious song:

“Christ is risen from the dead, trampling over death by death, come awake come awake, come and rise up from the grave, Christ is risen from the dead, we are one with Him again, come awake come awake, come and rise up from the grave” - Christ Is Risen by Matt Maher

Apologetics

The book does cover the resurrection from an apologetic approach as well. Given their premise, it is obvious that their apologetic approach is to focus on the resurrection. They do have some innovative ways of engaging with culture and non-believers and this flows into their apologetic approach.

As for a defense of the resurrection, they summarize Gary Habermas’ ‘’commonly agreed facts” approach and N. T. Wright’s “six essential detail” approach. In addition, they address four of the top questions raised about the resurrection.

Also, their contextualizing approach to apologetics is also covered but not to a great degree.

Recommendation

I highly recommend this book for its fresh view on the resurrection. I think for many people it will be a fresh approach with deep insights.

 

After much thought, I have decided to pursue a Master’s Degree in Apologetics.  This decision was not made in a vacuum.  Seventeen years ago I was looking to go to seminary but it did not work out at that time.  Since then, I have grown in maturity and feel called to pursue that course now.

I am not giving up my career; I will continue along that path.  However, I have a desire to teach and feel that teaching is one of my gifts.  The funny thing about teaching is in high school, I said there were two things I would not want to do, one of which was teaching.  I now teach computer classes, but as I get older, staying on top of the technology industry is not going to be easy.  In addition, I want to teach something that will change lives.

I applied and was accepted at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary.  I chose their seminary because it was cheap and online.  However, after talking to my best friend and others, I decided I would look for the best school in the field I am most interested in, Apologetics.   Biola University is known for its apologetics program, and I just found out they have a distance learning option.  They are slightly more expensive per unit, but I think the quality is head and shoulders above the rest.  Liberty was going to be $12,000 total for a Master’s of Theology whereas Biola will be $17,000 for a Master’s in Apologetics.  Right now I don’t know how I will pay for it.  Your prayers and support are appreciated.

I have just started the application process for Biola, and I have until December 1st to get it in for the spring 2012 semester.  I will let you know when I get accepted.

Pastor Rick Moe from Golden Hills Community Church has agreed to mentor me as I progress though school.  My best friend, John, has given me over 1000 books that he used while he was in seminary.  His topic of study was apologetics, so the books are very appropriate.   John has taught at Morling Theological College and believes that I have the gift of teaching and should pursue further education.  I thank them for their support.

I have to thank my wife for her support as well.  She puts up with me having my head in a book all the time and the library of books that fills our home.

That’s all for now.  I will periodically send you updates on my progress and post them to my blog.

Have you read lately on a billboard or in a magazine ad that the Judgment Day will be May 21, 2011? I have so many issues with this I don’t even know where to begin.
According to a pamphlet I picked up at a gas station, God has given us a head- up on the Day of Judgment. According to the pamphlet:

“..The Holy Bible tells us that Holy God is a God of great mercy, compassion and love. That is why He has given us in advance of the destruction the exact time of the Day of Judgment.”

The Bible does state that God has great mercy, compassion and love. However, the pamphlet does not say where exactly the Bible says that He give us the exact time of the Day of Judgment.

As you read further, you find that they quote 2 Peter 3:8 and as soon as you see that, you know where they are going with this. They take the passage, literally, to mean that one of God’s days is 1000 of our years. But if you read further to 2 Peter 3:10 it states the day will come like a ‘thief’. Given the context of the discourse, I would tend to lean toward a metaphorical figure of speech for understanding 2 Peter 3:8. Be that as it may, let’s read further to see what they do with a literal, out of context, interpretation of this passage.

Next, the pamphlet takes God’s warning of impending judgment from Genesis 7:4 and Genesis 7:10-11, where God says he will make it rain for 40 days and nights, to mean that in 7000 years God will destroy the earth with fire for good. (Side bar: 2 Peter 3:7 says that the first destruction was by water and was Noah’s flood and the second destruction would be by fire.) Here is what the pamphlet says:

“Therefore, with the correct understanding that the seven days referred to in Genesis 7:4 can be understood as 7,000 years, we learn that when God told Noah there were seven days to escape worldwide destruction, He was also telling the world there would be exactly 7,000 years (one day is as 1,000 years) to escape the wrath of God that would come when He destroys the world on Judgment Day.”

Issue 1 Context
Here, the passages are taken completely out of context. It is obvious to the casual reader of Genesis 7:4 that the seven days were seven, literal, 24 hour days before the rain would start. Genesis confirms this understanding in Genesis 7:10-11 when it states that it ‘came to pass’ that the rains started exactly seven 24 hour days later. What the pamphlet does to get around this is to imply that there are two fulfillments to Genesis 7:4, one, literal, 24 hour days and one, metaphorical, 1000 years per day.

Issue 2 1000 Years
First, I have a difficult time reading 2 Peter 3:8 literally that a day to God is like 1000 years to us. I think when you look at it literally; you have to ignore that God is eternal, which is to say He exists outside of time and space all together. (Read a past blog post on eternal) Time was created and is part of our universe, and as Einstein proved and current astrophysics teaches us, time is relative.

Second, are all those years 360 day years or 365.25 days? Originally, the earth’s orbit was 360 days and at some time in the BC era (I forget when) there was a change in the orbit to 365.25 days. For more information on prophetic years of 360 days I would recommend the book ‘The Coming Prince’ by Sir Robert Anderson; He demonstrates in his book that by using 360 day years you can take, at least on prophecy, from the Old Testament about the first coming of our Messiah to the exact day it was fulfilled in the New Testament.

Issue 3 The Bible as Whole
In order to buy this premise, you have to ignore everywhere else in the Bible that says we won’t know the day or the hour of the end. Here are a few passages: Matthew 25: 13 and Matthew 24:44.

Final Thoughts
This isn’t the first Church or group to give a date. I am betting these guys are wrong too. The problem is, it gives all Christians a bad name. Just look at the comments to a blogger’s post on the Christian obsession with the end.

I do know one other little tidbit from the Bible. In Deut. 18:20-22 the punishment for a false prophet is execution. If the End is May 21, 2011, I am ready. If the End is not May 21, 2011, are they ready?

One of the problems I have found with some Christian apologists is the propensity of some of them to be disingenuous, at best, when characterizing Satanists. Many of them fall into the trap of the informal fallacy of composition. In logic and reasoning, a fallacy of composition is when someone makes the assumption that what is true of a small portion of a population is true of the whole population. A composition fallacy is like asking one student in a classroom what their favorite color is and then making the assumption that it is the favorite color of all of the students in the classroom.

When someone hears the term Satanist, they cannot help but imagine blood sacrifices, ritualistic murder, demon summoning and all sorts of other wild magical things. This perception of Satanism is actually taken from a very small minority of Satanists that have been popularized by the media and disingenuous apologists. The truth about most Satanists is much less exciting than the perception and, as it is in the newspaper business, not worthy of print. Most people don't know what a true Satanist is or even have a true perception on one.

John Smulo demonstrates this point in his article in the Sacred Tribes Journal called "Spiritual Warfare Profiles of Satanism: Are They Misleading?” John asks the question, are Satanists fairly portrayed in work by popular Christian authors? John then demonstrates that the truth is, most Satanists are actually atheists, and they don't even believe in an evil entity named Satan or Lucifer. A vast majority of them do not engage in animal sacrifice or conjure up demons.

We may wonder then, why do they choose to call themselves Satanist if they don't believe in Satan? When Saul D. Alinsky dedicates his book, Rules for Radicals; to Lucifer what does he really mean? Does he believe in the devil and sacrifice goats? Doubtful. Satan is an icon for Satanists and other people. Satan is an icon that, in their minds, stands in drastic opposition to the western culture and the Judeo-Christian ethic we call the “golden rule;” do unto others as you would have them do to you or love your neighbor as yourself. Satan stands as an icon of selfishness, self-fulfillment and do unto others before they do unto you.

Satan becomes an icon of their worldview and philosophy. He is viewed as a nonexistent representation of their philosophy. Notice how he is characterized in the Satanic Bible:

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

"Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical; from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins - or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom - Lucifer." Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals

Why do Christian apologists tend to paint with a broad brush when characterizing Satanists? If I was only to read their books and then I ran in to a real live Satanist and started asking them about conjuring demons and animal sacrifices, they would look at me as if I was crazy. I would have lost all credibility I had up until that point. They won’t care what I have to say after that. I don’t know why some popular Christian apologists make such generalizations, but, if I am not careful to check their facts, I could end up looking like a fool.

We characterize people and make the assumption that the real difference between us is they worship a spiritual being called Satan, Lucifer or the Devil. In reality, the difference is one of philosophy. It is important to make sure we know where they are coming from if we want to engage in any type of meaningful dialog.

One of my Christian friends commented that my issue is just one of semantics, because Satan is still behind the philosophy. I don’t disagree that Satan is behind it because, technically, from a Christian point of view, Satan would be behind all the world’s false religions and teachings to one extent or another. However, the issue is how Satanists view themselves and their beliefs. We have to addresses them from where they are.

Check out my past blog on the Domains of Spiritual Warfare

I recently finished reading, "The Devil's Delusion, Atheism and it Scientific Pretentions" by David Berlinski. His book covers a number of topics and issues with current research posing as scientific. Science will never be able to prove the existence of God or the non-existence. Yet Atheists will tell you that science disproves God. It does not. It also does not 'prove' evolution. A common misconception.

Someone on FaceBook sent me a link to this video. It compares slavery and the holocaust with abortion. I know that everyone does not think that it is fair to compare the three different events. Citing they are to vastly different. However, I think that there is room to debate the coloration. I lean more toward the idea they are fair comparisons even if the events are different given in each case the value of life was in question.

Volition (n)- The act of making a choice. Sometimes the choice of inaction has consequences stronger than we could ever imagine. Throughout history, men have been faced with difficult choices in a world that makes it easy for them to conform. This film explores the hope that lies behind every decision made in the face of adversity; the hope that is buried in the heart of those that look beyond themselves and see something bigger worth fighting for.   Pasted from <http://www.thedoorpost.com/hope/film/?film=420351f1aefa2b42b1772fe9d5cc044a>

Since the early days of Christianity, people have made a distinction between how God acts in the Old Testament verses how He acts in the New Testament. Marcion wrote his Antitheses (= contradictory statements) contrasted the Old Testament God of wrath with Jesus’ God of love and mercy. He says that the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament are antithetical, that is They are in direct and unequivocal opposition.

Some people today see it as an irreconcilable difference and thus use it to question the existence of God.

“All Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he alone of Jeroboam’s family will come to the grave, because in him something good was found toward the Lord God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam." 1 Kings 14:13 NASB

“There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and  we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.” – NASB Num. 13:33

In some of my previous posts on Atheist, I have explored the source of their ethics.

 “But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. Do to others as you would like them to do to you. If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much! And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, why should you get credit? Even sinners will lend to other sinners for a full return. Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked." 

- Tyndale House Publishers: Holy Bible : New Living Translation. 2nd ed. Wheaton, Ill. : Tyndale House Publishers, 2004, S. Lk 6:27-35

• Matthew 5:44
• Matthew 22:37-39
• Mark 12:30-31
• Luke 6:27
• Luke 6:35
• Luke 10:27
• John 13:34-35
• John 15:17
• Romans 13:8-10
• Galatians 5:14
• Ephesians 5:25, 28, 33
• Colossians 3:19
• 1 Thessalonians 4:9
• James 2:8
• 1 Peter 1:22
• 1 John 4:11-12, 19-21

1. Christian Hypocrisy http://www.unvarnishedblog.com/component/content/article/4-apologetics/49-christian-hypocrisy
2. Question of the Week 1 http://www.unvarnishedblog.com/component/content/article/4-apologetics/44-question-of-the-week-1
3. How would you answer Richard Dawkins II http://www.unvarnishedblog.com/component/content/article/4-apologetics/40-what-would-you-say-to-richard-dawkins-question-ii
4. How would you answer Richard Dawkins? http://www.unvarnishedblog.com/component/content/article/4-apologetics/40-what-would-you-say-to-richard-dawkins-question-ii

Here is a good question a friend of mine posted on his FaceBook profile. 

In a previous post on "What would you say to Richard Dawkins question?" I had such a success I decided to do another one. One of the questions Dawkins like to ask about God in an effort to show he is capricious and thus not worthy of our attention is, "What would you do if God told you to kill someone?" Obviously, this is illusory to Abraham and Isaac. The Christian context of the event was not that God was capricious; it was that God was foreshadowing things to come and Isaac was never going to be harmed

I have been listening to some debates recently and realized that winning a debate does not make the premise true. The Truth of a statement is independent of how well defenders argue it. I have seen some website comments on some of the debates I have listened to and everyone thinks that their 'guy' won the debate. Truth is truth independent of someone ability to convince you otherwise.

What would God say to Richard Dawkins if he asked why is there so much pain and suffering? This is a legitimit question I have heard him ask a number of times in various debates and interviews. This is a very troubling question and I have heard a number of possible answers. Some of the answers given are a joke while others are great logically but leave something wanting in the emotional aspects.

I was talking with a friend of mine concerning Jehovah's Witness and Muslim view on the divinity of Jesus. Having discussed this with Jehovah's Witness (JW) friends of mine in the past, this one area is the central division between JW doctrine and that of other Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant). You see you really can't say that Jesus of Nazareth was just a prophet or a great moral teacher if he claimed to be God. He either is or is not God. If He is not God and He claims to be, He is a lair and not to be trusted as a prophet or great moral teacher. In fact a prophet who lies should be put to death (Deu 18: 20-22). 

Eipen autois ho Iesous Amen amen lego humin prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi

Greek test for John 8:58

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 8:58 (NASB)

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a good moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.  But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C. S. Lewis